Basic question: 96 Camry V6 Octane

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE engine
for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.

I use 93...

[Jeff]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE engine
for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it takes
more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally don't run
any better.

Jeff

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it
takes more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally
don't run any better.
Jeff

My cars run better, get better fuel economy, don't knock, and generally do
10% better with 93.

My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car, I
spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage between *89*
and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG better, my LHS
did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

[Jeff]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it
takes more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally
don't run any better.
Jeff

My cars run better, get better fuel economy, don't knock, and generally do
10% better with 93.
My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car, I
spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage between *89*
and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG better, my LHS
did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars running 87
octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had similar
performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must be doing
something special.

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-43B8-1817227-38951724-prod3

Jeff

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to
know what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that
year's manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the
octane, but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual
on this matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it
takes more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally
don't run any better.
Jeff

My cars run better, get better fuel economy, don't knock, and generally
do 10% better with 93.
My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car, I
spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage between
*89* and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG better, my
LHS did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars running
87 octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had similar
performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must be doing
something special.
http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-43B8-1817227-38951724-prod3
Jeff

I don't believe this at all:

"Mine actually gets about 5 mpg less if I fill it with 93 or 94. Now that
is strange."

I'll say. I run 90,91 or 93 in all my cars since 1980, and they all have
done better than on 87. When prices get high like they are now I switch
every other half-tank, from 89 to 93. This gives me 91. Good for me.

I always notice a difference going to 89, and won't even touch 87.

The cars in question are (were)

1980 Corolla SR-5 (3 MPG difference)
1985 Corolla GTS (4-6 MPG difference)
1987 Corolla Sedan (6 MPG difference)
1985 VW Jetta (don't know the difference)
1988 Honda Accord (5 MPG difference)
1995 Tercel (6 MPG difference from 89 to 93)
1985 Celica (4 MPG difference)
Supra (who cares?)
Scion tC (what's 87 octane gas?)

A 25 year track record works for me...

[C. E. White]

I keep a gas purchase log for all of my vehicles. Over the years I've
done the premium/regular comparison many times. I have never been able
to detect any significant difference in fuel economy. I've had several
vehicles with knock sensor and the claim was that if you used premium,
the PCM would adjust the engine parameters such that you would obtain
slightly better fuel economy and slightly more power. I have no way to
evaluate the power because the increase was relatively minor (3% to
5% - hard to detect without measuring equipment), but fuel economy
changes should show up over a long period of time. I've never seen
them. I know they should be there, but their is no way they can be
more than a few percentage points. I suppose if you have a car getting
25 mpg, a 5% increase would be detectable (26 mpg), but you need
careful records to determine this.

Logically, I can't see why you would expect a large increase in fuel
economy by switching to premium fuel - assuming the engine runs ok on
regular. Most PCMs only vary the ignition timing to adjust for fuel
type. While this does affect mileage, the effect at part throttle is
small. For conservative drivers, the difference is probably miniscule,
since even when running regular, they rarely stress the engine enough
to force the PCM to retard the timing. Without changing the
compression ration, I think the chances of measuring 6% or greater
differences in fuel economy are nil. With premium costing around 7%
more than regular, I think buying premium because of a possible
increase in fuel economy is bad economics. On the other hand, if you
are using your vehicle to haul a heavy load, towing a heavy load, or
driving at sustained high speeds, premium might be worth the extra
cost IF you have a car that can adjust the engine parameters (and most
modern cars can - although to varying degrees). And of course if you
have a car where the manual says premium is required, that is what you
should use.

From http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-07-30-premiumgas_x.htm :

"No data show that engines designed strictly for regular run better or
longer on premium.

"The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n
most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual
recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car
perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."

"There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade
car," says Furey.

"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in
charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.

"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in
buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul
Williamsen, technical expert and trainer."

From
http://www.chevron.com/products/PRODSERV/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/8_q-a/#21 :

"21. Will premium gasoline give better fuel economy than regular?
Will one brand of gasoline give better mileage than another?

Gasolines with higher heating values give better fuel economy.
Differences can exist, but they will be small compared to the benefits
to be derived from the maintenance and driving tips in the above
answer.

Traditionally, premium has had a slightly higher heating value than
regular, and, thus, provided slightly better fuel economy. The
difference - less than 1 percent better - is not large enough to
offset premium's higher cost. The difference is likely to be less or
nonexistent between grades of reformulated gasoline.

There can be differences in heating value between batches of gasoline
from the same refinery or between brands of gasoline from different
refineries because of compositional differences. The differences are
small and there is no practical way for the consumer to identify the
gasoline with a higher heating value.

Also see:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.shtm
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/106293/article.html

Ed

[BCDrums]

Post by C. E. White
"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in
buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul
Williamsen, technical expert and trainer."

Ed,

What do you think about this, from a 2004 Highlander manual for the V6
engine:

"3MZ-FE engine: Select Octane Rating 87 (Research Octane 91) or higher.
For improved vehicle performance, the use of premium unleaded gasoline
with an Octane Rating of 91 (Research Octane 96) or higher is recommended."

I have tried all three grades of gas, and there is not a conclusive
difference among them. so what does Toyota mean?

BC

[C. E. White]

Post by BCDrums

Post by C. E. White
"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value
in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's
Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer."

Ed,
What do you think about this, from a 2004 Highlander manual for the
"3MZ-FE engine: Select Octane Rating 87 (Research Octane 91) or
higher. For improved vehicle performance, the use of premium
unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 (Research Octane 96)
or higher is recommended."
I have tried all three grades of gas, and there is not a conclusive
difference among them. so what does Toyota mean?
BC

It seems pretty clear to me - Toyota expects the engine to provide
slightly greater maximum power and slightly better fuel economy if you
use premium fuel. My belief is, that if you are a conservative driver
and you are not doing anything special, you will not likely see a
difference. On the other hand, if you are a more aggressive driver, or
you are towing, or carrying a heavy load, you might see a difference.

Here is my train of thought - The PCM doesn't know whether you are
using regular or premium fuel. It changes the engine parameters based
on things it can measure. Your engine has knock sensors. These detect
pre-ignition (knocking). They are far more sensitive than your ears.
When knocking is detected, the PCM changes the engine operating
parameters (chiefly by retarding the ignition) to reduce / eliminate
the spark knock. Retarding the timing also reduces maximum power and
fuel economy. The amount these are affected is determined by the
amount the ignition is retarded. The PCM is continually readjusting
the timing to attempt to maximize the fuel economy. People who
accelerate gently and aren't otherwise stressing the engine aren't as
likely to provoke spark knock even when using regular fuel. Since the
ignition is retarded in response to spark knock, conservative drivers
may already be running close to the maximum advance that the PCM
allows under any condition. So they are unlikely to see any difference
if they switch to premium fuel. On the other hand, aggressive drivers,
or drivers who stress the engine (towing, hauling heavy loads, etc)
might see a big difference (big being 5%) in fuel economy. This is
because they are constantly operating the engine in a manner that
induces spark knock when running regular fuel. Because of the spark
knock, the PCM is usually running the engine at the minimum spark
advance allowed (fully retarded). When these aggressive drivers use
premium fuel, the spark knock decreases, so the PCM can now go to
maximum advance. This allows maximum power and fuel economy.

For your Highlander, if you want maximum power, you need to run
premium. This will allow the PCM to adjust the ignition timing to the
maximum advance where the engine will produce the most power. The
difference is probably in the 5 to 10 horsepower range. But do you
often drive at or near full throttle? If not, you are never going to
see much difference in power. If you are a conservative driver, I
doubt you'll see much difference in fuel economy. However, if you are
a more aggressive driver there may be an increase if you use premium
(3% to 5% is what is usually quoted). Your Highlander will run just
fine on regular. If you are really curious, start keeping a gas
mileage log book. Use premium for a couple of months and then switch
back to regular. You need to do many tank fulls to get an accurate
idea, and of course if you do something extraordinary (like take a
long trip) in the middle of the comparison, the results can be
meaningless.

Ed

[BCDrums]

Post by C. E. White

Post by BCDrums

Post by C. E. White
"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value
in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's
Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer."

Ed,
What do you think about this, from a 2004 Highlander manual for the
"3MZ-FE engine: Select Octane Rating 87 (Research Octane 91) or
higher. For improved vehicle performance, the use of premium
unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 (Research Octane 96)
or higher is recommended."
I have tried all three grades of gas, and there is not a conclusive
difference among them. so what does Toyota mean?
BC

It seems pretty clear to me - Toyota expects the engine to provide
slightly greater maximum power and slightly better fuel economy if you
use premium fuel. My belief is, that if you are a conservative driver
and you are not doing anything special, you will not likely see a
difference. On the other hand, if you are a more aggressive driver, or
you are towing, or carrying a heavy load, you might see a difference.
Here is my train of thought - The PCM doesn't know whether you are
using regular or premium fuel. It changes the engine parameters based
on things it can measure. Your engine has knock sensors. These detect
pre-ignition (knocking). They are far more sensitive than your ears.
When knocking is detected, the PCM changes the engine operating
parameters (chiefly by retarding the ignition) to reduce / eliminate
the spark knock. Retarding the timing also reduces maximum power and
fuel economy. The amount these are affected is determined by the
amount the ignition is retarded. The PCM is continually readjusting
the timing to attempt to maximize the fuel economy. People who
accelerate gently and aren't otherwise stressing the engine aren't as
likely to provoke spark knock even when using regular fuel. Since the
ignition is retarded in response to spark knock, conservative drivers
may already be running close to the maximum advance that the PCM
allows under any condition. So they are unlikely to see any difference
if they switch to premium fuel. On the other hand, aggressive drivers,
or drivers who stress the engine (towing, hauling heavy loads, etc)
might see a big difference (big being 5%) in fuel economy. This is
because they are constantly operating the engine in a manner that
induces spark knock when running regular fuel. Because of the spark
knock, the PCM is usually running the engine at the minimum spark
advance allowed (fully retarded). When these aggressive drivers use
premium fuel, the spark knock decreases, so the PCM can now go to
maximum advance. This allows maximum power and fuel economy.
For your Highlander, if you want maximum power, you need to run
premium. This will allow the PCM to adjust the ignition timing to the
maximum advance where the engine will produce the most power. The
difference is probably in the 5 to 10 horsepower range. But do you
often drive at or near full throttle? If not, you are never going to
see much difference in power. If you are a conservative driver, I
doubt you'll see much difference in fuel economy. However, if you are
a more aggressive driver there may be an increase if you use premium
(3% to 5% is what is usually quoted). Your Highlander will run just
fine on regular. If you are really curious, start keeping a gas
mileage log book. Use premium for a couple of months and then switch
back to regular. You need to do many tank fulls to get an accurate
idea, and of course if you do something extraordinary (like take a
long trip) in the middle of the comparison, the results can be
meaningless.
Ed

That's a clear explanation, Ed. Thanks.

BC

[Tegger]

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car,
I spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage
between *89* and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG
better, my LHS did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars
running 87 octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had
similar performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must
be doing something special.

I did some testiing over a couple of years with my Honda, comparing 87
octane with 91.

If anything, there was either no change in mileage, or a 2% reduction with
91. And that 2% may have been related to the lower temperatures I
experienced during part of the test.

Some say higher octane gas contains better additives, specifically more
detergents as partial justification for the higher cost. If true, this
would contribute to engine cleanliness.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Tegger
Some say higher octane gas contains better additives, specifically more
detergents as partial justification for the higher cost. If true, this
would contribute to engine cleanliness.

That used to be the case in general, prior to 1995 when the feds
mandated a minimum level of detergents in ALL fuels.

Now you'll find that Shell (for example) puts more than the minimum
detergents in all their grades, and their 93 octane fuel contains 2x
detergents than their lower octane fuels.

So if you need to clean out your fuel system, run a few tanks of Shell
93. Once it's clean, run Shell 87 to keep it that way.

http://www.toptiergas.com

Some other major retailers operate similarly.

You can bet that the no-name and grocery store shops meet minimum
federal standards--period.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Tegger
Some say higher octane gas contains better additives, specifically more
detergents as partial justification for the higher cost. If true, this
would contribute to engine cleanliness.

That used to be the case in general, prior to 1995 when the feds mandated
a minimum level of detergents in ALL fuels.
Now you'll find that Shell (for example) puts more than the minimum
detergents in all their grades, and their 93 octane fuel contains 2x
detergents than their lower octane fuels.
So if you need to clean out your fuel system, run a few tanks of Shell 93.
Once it's clean, run Shell 87 to keep it that way.
http://www.toptiergas.com
Some other major retailers operate similarly.
You can bet that the no-name and grocery store shops meet minimum federal
standards--period.

When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol like in
Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's convenient.

[v***@hotmail.com]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Tegger
Some say higher octane gas contains better additives, specifically more
detergents as partial justification for the higher cost. If true, this
would contribute to engine cleanliness.

That used to be the case in general, prior to 1995 when the feds mandated
a minimum level of detergents in ALL fuels.
Now you'll find that Shell (for example) puts more than the minimum
detergents in all their grades, and their 93 octane fuel contains 2x
detergents than their lower octane fuels.
So if you need to clean out your fuel system, run a few tanks of Shell 93.
 Once it's clean, run Shell 87 to keep it that way.
http://www.toptiergas.com
Some other major retailers operate similarly.
You can bet that the no-name and grocery store shops meet minimum federal
standards--period.

When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol like in
Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's convenient.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Top explanation ed.

[Tegger]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol
like in Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's
convenient.

Everybody usues ethanol now. They've all been strongarmed into it by the
Feds. The modern alternatives are MMT and MTBE, both essentially
prohibited.

Go check out the MSDS sheets for the various companies' gasolines.

[C. E. White]

Post by Tegger

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol
like in Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's
convenient.

Everybody usues ethanol now. They've all been strongarmed into it by the
Feds. The modern alternatives are MMT and MTBE, both essentially
prohibited.

Actually, I think ethanol use varies greatly by geography. At least
for now in NC, we don't have to use the stuff. A few years back our
winter gasoline had either MBTE or ethanol, but they finally stopped
making us do that. I know some states (Minnesota for sure) require 5%
ethanol in all gasoline.

Mobil has a decent FAQ at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Gasoline_FAQ.asp
(or http://tinyurl.com/h6xan )

There is a fuel requirements map at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf
(or http://tinyurl.com/2bdmk8 )

The map shows that much of the northeast coastal areas require ethanol
in the gas.

Chevron also has good information on gasoline at
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/ (or
http://tinyurl.com/yucftl )

Ed

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Tegger

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol like
in Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's convenient.

Everybody usues ethanol now. They've all been strongarmed into it by the
Feds. The modern alternatives are MMT and MTBE, both essentially
prohibited.

Actually, I think ethanol use varies greatly by geography. At least for
now in NC, we don't have to use the stuff. A few years back our winter
gasoline had either MBTE or ethanol, but they finally stopped making us do
that. I know some states (Minnesota for sure) require 5% ethanol in all
gasoline.
Mobil has a decent FAQ at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Gasoline_FAQ.asp
(or http://tinyurl.com/h6xan )
There is a fuel requirements map at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf
(or http://tinyurl.com/2bdmk8 )
The map shows that much of the northeast coastal areas require ethanol in
the gas.
Chevron also has good information on gasoline at
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/ (or
http://tinyurl.com/yucftl )
Ed

Mass requires Ethanol, VT does not:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

[Tegger]

Post by C. E. White
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

Eh, I f***ed up. What can I say?

My province just mandated the use of ethanol. Minimum 5% now, rising to 10%
in three years.

Envirowackos. Eco-fascists.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

Eh, I f***ed up. What can I say?

That's OK. I made a mistake, too. Once. ;)
(I think it was buying a VW. Either that or getting married..EITHER time...)

Post by Tegger
My province just mandated the use of ethanol. Minimum 5% now, rising to
10% in three years.
Envirowackos. Eco-fascists.

Interesting. I started filling my Mom's car up where I get my gas, and she
asked me what I put in it (knowing I pay the extra $$$ for 93 Oct...)

I told her the 87 Oct at the station downtown. She said the car ran a lot
better and "takes longer for the gauge to go down." They run 10% Ethanol
there...

[EdV]

BWAHAHAHA, that was good one

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
That's OK. I made a mistake, too. Once. ;)
(I think it was buying a VW. Either that or getting married..EITHER time...)

[C. E. White]

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

Eh, I f***ed up. What can I say?
My province just mandated the use of ethanol. Minimum 5% now, rising to 10%
in three years.
Envirowackos. Eco-fascists.

Don't forget the farm lobby. Last year I sold corn for around $2 per
bushel. This year I have already contracted to sell it at over $3.50
and I am worried I signed up too soon. Last year my profit on corn was
negligible. This year I might actually make money.

Ed

[Tegger]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

Eh, I f***ed up. What can I say?
My province just mandated the use of ethanol. Minimum 5% now, rising to 10%
in three years.
Envirowackos. Eco-fascists.

Don't forget the farm lobby. Last year I sold corn for around $2 per
bushel. This year I have already contracted to sell it at over $3.50
and I am worried I signed up too soon. Last year my profit on corn was
negligible. This year I might actually make money.

Even worse than the farm lobby (sorry) are the refiners, like Archer
Daniels Midland in the US and Commercial Alcohols in Canada. Those two take
to governments like smack addicts take to Afghan heroin. Fierce lobbying by
those two results in a heavy IV feed for both...straight from us to them.

Why the heck are you bothering with field corn anyway? Why does _anybody_
bother with field corn? Nobody makes money on that crap. One guy I know
carved up 100 acres of 8ft corn into a fancy maze last summer, and charged
people to navigate it. He told me he made more doing that than he would
ever have made selling the stuff.
http://www.cornfieldmaze.com/sites.php?ID=&username=ontzephyr

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf

Eh, I f***ed up. What can I say?
My province just mandated the use of ethanol. Minimum 5% now, rising to 10%
in three years.
Envirowackos. Eco-fascists.

Don't forget the farm lobby. Last year I sold corn for around $2 per
bushel. This year I have already contracted to sell it at over $3.50 and
I am worried I signed up too soon. Last year my profit on corn was
negligible. This year I might actually make money.

Even worse than the farm lobby (sorry) are the refiners, like Archer
Daniels Midland in the US and Commercial Alcohols in Canada. Those two
take to governments like smack addicts take to Afghan heroin. Fierce
lobbying by those two results in a heavy IV feed for both...straight from
us to them.
Why the heck are you bothering with field corn anyway? Why does _anybody_
bother with field corn? Nobody makes money on that crap. One guy I know
carved up 100 acres of 8ft corn into a fancy maze last summer, and charged
people to navigate it. He told me he made more doing that than he would
ever have made selling the stuff.
http://www.cornfieldmaze.com/sites.php?ID=&username=ontzephyr

HAHAHA! There's a guy here in Mass that does the same thing. He also makes
more on the maze than he does on cron sales...QUITE a bit more! Matter of
fact, that's where most of his profit comes from!

Every year he does something to try to be topical with what's going on. In
2003 he did Kerry and Bush. He does it around October so it's either
something Halloween-y or topical.

Wonder what this year's will be! ;)

[Jeff]

"Hachiroku ????" <***@AE86.gts> wrote in message news:9Ay_h.5632$***@trndny04...
<...>

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
HAHAHA! There's a guy here in Mass that does the same thing. He also makes
more on the maze than he does on cron sales...QUITE a bit more! Matter of
fact, that's where most of his profit comes from!
Every year he does something to try to be topical with what's going on. In
2003 he did Kerry and Bush. He does it around October so it's either
something Halloween-y or topical.

In October, isn't Halloween topiocal?

Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
Wonder what this year's will be! ;)

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Jeff
<...>

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
HAHAHA! There's a guy here in Mass that does the same thing. He also
makes more on the maze than he does on cron sales...QUITE a bit more!
Matter of fact, that's where most of his profit comes from!
Every year he does something to try to be topical with what's going on.
In 2003 he did Kerry and Bush. He does it around October so it's either
something Halloween-y or topical.

In October, isn't Halloween topiocal?

Well, unless there's some really pressing issue, like the elections or
some other hot-button topic.

Post by Jeff
Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
Wonder what this year's will be! ;)

[Jeff]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff
<...>

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
HAHAHA! There's a guy here in Mass that does the same thing. He also
makes more on the maze than he does on cron sales...QUITE a bit more!
Matter of fact, that's where most of his profit comes from!
Every year he does something to try to be topical with what's going on.
In 2003 he did Kerry and Bush. He does it around October so it's either
something Halloween-y or topical.

In October, isn't Halloween topiocal?

Well, unless there's some really pressing issue, like the elections or
some other hot-button topic.

Wouldn't it still be topical?

Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff
Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
Wonder what this year's will be! ;)

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff
<...>

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
HAHAHA! There's a guy here in Mass that does the same thing. He also
makes more on the maze than he does on cron sales...QUITE a bit more!
Matter of fact, that's where most of his profit comes from!
Every year he does something to try to be topical with what's going
on. In 2003 he did Kerry and Bush. He does it around October so it's
either something Halloween-y or topical.

In October, isn't Halloween topiocal?

Well, unless there's some really pressing issue, like the elections or
some other hot-button topic.

Wouldn't it still be topical?
Jeff

Yeah, but then again, so are some steroids...

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff
Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
Wonder what this year's will be! ;)

[C. E. White]

Post by Tegger
Why the heck are you bothering with field corn anyway? Why does _anybody_
bother with field corn? Nobody makes money on that crap.

Not true. I made money last year, but not the sort I could have made
by working at Wal*Mart for a similar number of hours. This year with
the higher prices I hope to do better. The declining US dollar might
not be good for somethings, but it usually helps farm prices. Over the
years my Father probably made more money raising corn than anything
else. In recent years cotton, peanuts and soybeans have all been more
profitable per acre, but corn has certain advantages. I also raise
cattle. Corn is out of the field early enough so that I can seed a
winter crop for grazing, or winter wheat for harvest next year. Corn
is also a very good rotation crop. The weed problems in corn are a lot
different than in the other crops, so it helps control the weeds. And
corn doesn't suffer from a lot of soil born diseases like soybeans and
peanuts. You can plant corn repeatedly in the same field without
worrying about disease problems. If you do that with soybeans or
peanuts, you are asking for trouble.

Post by Tegger
One guy I know
carved up 100 acres of 8ft corn into a fancy maze last summer, and charged
people to navigate it. He told me he made more doing that than he would
ever have made selling the stuff.
http://www.cornfieldmaze.com/sites.php?ID=&username=ontzephyr

Well it depends on where your farm is located. My farm is 20 miles
from nowhere, and at least 50 from a major population center. Besides,
I already have too many strangers "accidentally" ending up in my
fields. Two years ago some kids decided it would be fun to make
patterns in my soybeans with four wheelers. And don't get me started
about the deer hunters, or the neighbors with horses, but no land or
the city guys with monster mud trucks who think my empty field is the
perfect place to joy ride or the people to lazy to drive another 3
miles to the county trash dump and shove their crap in my fields.

Ed

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Tegger

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
When I was working in VT I was using Shell. They don't add Ethanol like
in Mass. When I fill up in Mass I use Gulf. Because it's convenient.

Everybody usues ethanol now. They've all been strongarmed into it by the
Feds. The modern alternatives are MMT and MTBE, both essentially
prohibited.

Actually, I think ethanol use varies greatly by geography. At least for
now in NC, we don't have to use the stuff. A few years back our winter
gasoline had either MBTE or ethanol, but they finally stopped making us do
that. I know some states (Minnesota for sure) require 5% ethanol in all
gasoline.
Mobil has a decent FAQ at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Gasoline_FAQ.asp
(or http://tinyurl.com/h6xan )
There is a fuel requirements map at
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf
(or http://tinyurl.com/2bdmk8 )
The map shows that much of the northeast coastal areas require ethanol in
the gas.
Chevron also has good information on gasoline at
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/ (or
http://tinyurl.com/yucftl )
Ed

(From Shell)

THE FUEL COMPETENT **

You know that your car could be more fuel-efficient, but you love it just
the same and are indifferent about the fuel that you buy. You've heard
that all gasolines are not the same, but convenience and price are more
your concern. That's fine for now, but choosing a high-quality gasoline
like Shell will help you down the road. Making smarter decisions at the
pump is easy and you can do so by trying the tips that are included in the
Shell FuelStretch program.

[C. E. White]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
(From Shell)
THE FUEL COMPETENT **
You know that your car could be more fuel-efficient, but you love it just
the same and are indifferent about the fuel that you buy. You've heard
that all gasolines are not the same, but convenience and price are more
your concern. That's fine for now, but choosing a high-quality
gasoline
like Shell will help you down the road. Making smarter decisions at the
pump is easy and you can do so by trying the tips that are included in the
Shell FuelStretch program.

What the heck does that mean?

I often buy Shell, but not because I think it is soooo special. It
just happens that I go by a couple of Shell Stations that are price
competitive. If the shell is 2.859 and the "Kangaroo" is 2.849, I'll
usually buy the Shell (plus the Shell station has a easier to see
price sign). But if the Murphy is 2.799, I'll go there every time
(plus they have the fastest pumps I've ever used).

Chevron and Shell both claim to meet the top tier gasoline
requirements that some car companies (GM, Toyota, BMW,...) are
pushing. BP claims their gasoline is better for the environment, and
for some reason, Ford actually has a sticker on the gas cap of newer
cars saying that they recommend BP...what's up with that? Is BP paying
Ford to advertise their gas?

Here is what I think -

Within the EPA defined areas, unleaded gasoline is mostly traded as a
commodity. Before the secret sauce is added, it is pretty much all the
same. All unleaded gasoline has a minimum level of detergents as
required by the EPA. The different brands have different secret sauces
added to clean valves and fuel injectors. They all claim theirs is the
best. Some claim their premium gasoline has more/better stuff, some
claim all their grades are really, really, really good. Mostly I think
this is advertising hype. I think if you compared Shell to BP to Citgo
to Philips to Mobil, they are all be just fine. Maybe when they
compare their gas to "Happy Gas" they come out better, but I even
doubt that. My car mostly gets brand name gasoline (Shell and BP and
Citgo are the most common brands I buy because of convenience) but my
sister only buys whatever is cheapest and her Honda runs just fine at
130,000 miles (I did change the fuel filter once about 8 years and
100,000 miles ago). Likewise because of convenience, my Nissan truck
mostly gets "Raceway" or "Wilco" gasoline. So far I've not seen a
problem.(40k miles).

Here is one thing that I think about - although I worry about the
domestic car industry going belly up, I don't seem to worry about the
domestic oil industry and I buy gasoline from foreign owned companies:

Shell - English/Dutch Company
Citgo - Venezuelan (argh)
BP - British

Ed

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
(From Shell)
THE FUEL COMPETENT **
You know that your car could be more fuel-efficient, but you love it just
the same and are indifferent about the fuel that you buy. You've heard
that all gasolines are not the same, but convenience and price are more
your concern. That's fine for now, but choosing a high-quality gasoline
like Shell will help you down the road. Making smarter decisions at the
pump is easy and you can do so by trying the tips that are included in the
Shell FuelStretch program.

What the heck does that mean?

Take the Fuel Test at the Shell site...

Post by C. E. White
I often buy Shell, but not because I think it is soooo special. It just
happens that I go by a couple of Shell Stations that are price
competitive. If the shell is 2.859 and the "Kangaroo" is 2.849, I'll
usually buy the Shell (plus the Shell station has a easier to see price
sign). But if the Murphy is 2.799, I'll go there every time (plus they
have the fastest pumps I've ever used).
Chevron and Shell both claim to meet the top tier gasoline requirements
that some car companies (GM, Toyota, BMW,...) are pushing. BP claims their
gasoline is better for the environment, and for some reason, Ford actually
has a sticker on the gas cap of newer cars saying that they recommend
BP...what's up with that? Is BP paying Ford to advertise their gas?
Here is what I think -
Within the EPA defined areas, unleaded gasoline is mostly traded as a
commodity. Before the secret sauce is added, it is pretty much all the
same. All unleaded gasoline has a minimum level of detergents as required
by the EPA. The different brands have different secret sauces added to
clean valves and fuel injectors. They all claim theirs is the best. Some
claim their premium gasoline has more/better stuff, some claim all their
grades are really, really, really good. Mostly I think this is advertising
hype. I think if you compared Shell to BP to Citgo to Philips to Mobil,
they are all be just fine. Maybe when they compare their gas to "Happy
Gas" they come out better, but I even doubt that. My car mostly gets brand
name gasoline (Shell and BP and Citgo are the most common brands I buy
because of convenience) but my sister only buys whatever is cheapest and
her Honda runs just fine at 130,000 miles (I did change the fuel filter
once about 8 years and 100,000 miles ago). Likewise because of
convenience, my Nissan truck mostly gets "Raceway" or "Wilco" gasoline. So
far I've not seen a problem.(40k miles).
Here is one thing that I think about - although I worry about the domestic
car industry going belly up, I don't seem to worry about the domestic oil
Shell - English/Dutch Company

Royal Dutch Shell.

Post by C. E. White
Citgo - Venezuelan (argh)

Used to be Cities Service when I was a kid (showing my age again...)

Post by C. E. White
BP - British

British Petroleum

Can get Agip and Elf products around here, but not really gasoline.

Post by C. E. White
Ed

[unknown]

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it
takes more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally
don't run any better.
Jeff

My cars run better, get better fuel economy, don't knock, and
generally do
10% better with 93.
My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car, I
spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage between *89*
and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG better, my LHS
did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars
running 87 octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had
similar performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must be
doing something special.
http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-43B8-1817227-38951724-prod3
Jeff

Fuel economy changes it is due to the density of the fuel and the better
power production of higher octane fuels under heavy load. most people
should see and increase in economy due to a slightly leaner mix and
being less prone to detonation, if not you car is either turned very
well or in need of being looked at because something is not working
properly.

["mjc13" <"mjc13"@verizon.net>]

Post by unknown

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Jeff

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

Why? It takes more oil to make a gallon of 93 compared to 87 or 89 (it
takes more energy to refine it). And it costs more. And, cars generally
don't run any better.
Jeff

My cars run better, get better fuel economy, don't knock, and generally do
10% better with 93.
My Tercel managed 15% better with 93. Over the time I owned the car, I
spent ~$240 LESS using 93, based on the difference in milage between *89*
and 93. (from 38 MPG to 45 MPG). My Hachiroku does 4 MPG better, my LHS
did 2, and my Supra...Who Cares? The car runs good.

Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars
running 87 octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had
similar performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must
be doing something special.
http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-43B8-1817227-38951724-prod3
Jeff

Fuel economy changes it is due to the density of the fuel and the better
power production of higher octane fuels under heavy load. most people
should see and increase in economy due to a slightly leaner mix and
being less prone to detonation, if not you car is either turned very
well or in need of being looked at because something is not working
properly.

I think that the only people who see better economy with higher
octane fuels are the ones with heavy right feet. Lower octane gas
vaporizes more readily, and as long as you aren't putting the engine
under serious load so the knock sensor gets the timing retarded, you
will see better economy with that well-vaporized 87 octane. Some engines
are probably so 'biased' towards power production instead of economy
that they do better on higher octane fuels, but most engines will just
produce a little more horsepower with them...

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by "mjc13" <"mjc13"@verizon.net>

Post by unknown
Fuel economy changes it is due to the density of the fuel and the better
power production of higher octane fuels under heavy load. most people
should see and increase in economy due to a slightly leaner mix and
being less prone to detonation, if not you car is either turned very
well or in need of being looked at because something is not working
properly.

I think that the only people who see better economy with higher
octane fuels are the ones with heavy right feet.

That's probably it. The light turns green, and I don't squeal 'em, but I
*GO*! Although one of the cars was a Tercel with a wimpy motor, even
though I didn't flog it I still managed 6 MPG more on 93 than on 89. I
won't touch 87. I don't care what anyone says, the old saying is, You get
what you pay for.

The rest of my cars are twin-cam "G" series engines and are set up for
higher perfomance than their "F" series counterparts, and I believe "G"
means "GO!". Except for my Scion. It has: "There is also a version of the
2AZ-FE engine with 160 hp and 163 ft lbs of torque made in Japan for the
Scion tC." (I believe it is a 2AZ-GE made in Japan) The Compression Ratio
is almost 10:1, fairly high, so I don't want to run crap in it...

[j***@hotmail.com]

VW is making engines with more than 12:1 compression ratio. I wonder
if these run on 87. Then again, the Bosch stratified charge injection
system builds a dense charge of fuel right next to the spark plug (and
increasingly more air the farther away from the plug) And you get up
to 64:1 air fuel ratio during light load driving in Ultra Lean Burn
mode.

So the 96 1MZFE, like the 97-01 generation without anything like the
Bosch high pressure (1600 Bar) stratified charge piezoelectric system,
should run fine on 87 cheap gas with ~14.7:1 air fuel ratio. ;)

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
The rest of my cars are twin-cam "G" series engines and are set up for
higher perfomance than their "F" series counterparts, and I believe "G"
means "GO!". Except for my Scion. It has: "There is also a version of the
2AZ-FE engine with 160 hp and 163 ft lbs of torque made in Japan for the
Scion tC." (I believe it is a 2AZ-GE made in Japan) The Compression Ratio
is almost 10:1, fairly high, so I don't want to run crap in it...

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Jeff
Congratulations. Every report that I have seen that compared cars running
87 octane vs. higher octane for cars requiring 87 octane had similar
performance as far as HP and mileage with 87 and 93. You must be doing
something special.

I don't drive entirely like a wimp? But I only go 70 on the highway.

Fifty everywhere else...

[Ray O]

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to
know what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that
year's manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the
octane, but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual
on this matter.

The manual for the 1997 Avalon with the same engine recommends 87. Your
engine will be the same.

[Me]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE engine
for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?

And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.

Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

[Danny G.]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Or the good stuff... http://www.trickgas.com/

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Danny G.

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to
know what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that
year's manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the
octane, but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual
on this matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Or the good stuff... http://www.trickgas.com/

I gotta get me some of that Blue gas!!!

[unknown]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will cost
$1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.

we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

[Bruce L. Bergman]

On Thu, 03 May 2007 18:01:10 +1000, Nick Bourne <"nabourne at

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will cost
$1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

The USA uses an average of the Research Octane and Motor Octane
systems - (RON+MON)/2 - to get our posted "Pump Octane". The
sea-level to 5000' elevations usually get 87 'regular', 89 'mid-grade'
(usually a blender inside the dispenser) and 91 or 92 'premium'.

There is limited distribution of street-legal pump "racing" unleaded
gas at 105-108 octane available for the old musclecar crowd with the
high-compression engines and no electronic controls to limit
detonation. They don't have to go to the airport and sneak out AvGas,
and don't get nailed in the wallet quite as hard.

And fuel taxes aren't as steep, but the refiners use collusion on
refinery capacity ("We haven't been able to get permits to build a new
refinery in 30 years!" Wink wink, nod nod...) to keep the prices
artificially high.

Where the big fines come in here is if you try buying "Off-Road"
diesel fuel for farms and stationary equipment with red dye blended in
(and no Road Use Taxes paid) and try running it in highway trucks.
They take dipper samples from the tanks at the truck scales or look at
the clear fuel filter/water separator bowl, and if the fuel shows pink
or red you "got some 'splainin' to do..."

--<< Bruce >>--

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to
know what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that
year's manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the
octane, but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual
on this matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will cost
$1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

[unknown]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to
know what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that
year's manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the
octane, but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual
on this matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will cost
$1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel depending
on the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans with 6l gen
IV v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel depending on
the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans with 6l gen IV
v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!

But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a lot
of other places.

IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of petroleum
produts, unlike here.

BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

[unknown]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian a
gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths is
right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel depending on
the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans with 6l gen IV
v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!
But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a lot
of other places.
IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of petroleum
produts, unlike here.
BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

We do but we still have to get it at the price on the Singapore stock
exchange. Having said that our oil production is down 20% on last year
so some of it will have to start being imported. We have a lot of coal
but it's really only for export and power generation. I don't that that
they would want to give up the coal exporting to help offset oil.

Yep we still produce the falcon and it's still a big 4 door sedan or 2
door ute. you can get it with a 4L twin cam 6, 4L turbo twin cam 6 or
5.4L Quad Cam V8. Personally I think the 330hp turbo 6 is the best.

Falcon Sedan
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage
Falcon Ute
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian
a gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths
is right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel depending
on the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans with 6l gen
IV v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!
But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a
lot of other places.
IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of
petroleum produts, unlike here.
BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

We do but we still have to get it at the price on the Singapore stock
exchange. Having said that our oil production is down 20% on last year so
some of it will have to start being imported. We have a lot of coal but
it's really only for export and power generation. I don't that that they
would want to give up the coal exporting to help offset oil.
Yep we still produce the falcon and it's still a big 4 door sedan or 2
door ute. you can get it with a 4L twin cam 6, 4L turbo twin cam 6 or 5.4L
Quad Cam V8. Personally I think the 330hp turbo 6 is the best.
Falcon Sedan
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Looks like the US Fusion, but no wagon version here. I like wagons.
They're handy.

Post by unknown
Falcon Ute
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage

WTF are THOSE?! Fusion TRUCKS?!?! Damn! NOTHING at all like that here. The
'Ranchero' has been 'out of print' for a couple decades. I like the
'Styleside'; cool looking vehicle.

And a LOT of V8s! I don't kow if you can get the Fusion with an 8, all I
ever saw were sixes.

[unknown]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50 Australian
a gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my conversion maths
is right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel depending
on the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans with 6l gen
IV v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!
But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a
lot of other places.
IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of
petroleum produts, unlike here.
BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

We do but we still have to get it at the price on the Singapore stock
exchange. Having said that our oil production is down 20% on last year so
some of it will have to start being imported. We have a lot of coal but
it's really only for export and power generation. I don't that that they
would want to give up the coal exporting to help offset oil.
Yep we still produce the falcon and it's still a big 4 door sedan or 2
door ute. you can get it with a 4L twin cam 6, 4L turbo twin cam 6 or 5.4L
Quad Cam V8. Personally I think the 330hp turbo 6 is the best.
Falcon Sedan
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Looks like the US Fusion, but no wagon version here. I like wagons.
They're handy.

Post by unknown
Falcon Ute
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage

WTF are THOSE?! Fusion TRUCKS?!?! Damn! NOTHING at all like that here. The
'Ranchero' has been 'out of print' for a couple decades. I like the
'Styleside'; cool looking vehicle.
And a LOT of V8s! I don't kow if you can get the Fusion with an 8, all I
ever saw were sixes.

The utes are cool cars, basically we have have them instead of F150's.
I don't know the full extent of the car scene in the US but we still
have a lot of big 6s and 8s in rear wheel drive. The GTO that came out
in the US a couple of years back was an Australian only model initially
until GM decided to send it to the world.

I do have one question for you. If you like wagons and think the utes
are cool what do you think of this car?

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20000

It was only a one off but you can option the rear body on the standard ute.

[Ray O]

"Nick Bourne" <"nabourne at tpg.com.au"> wrote in message news:463daba7$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
<snipped>

Post by unknown
The utes are cool cars, basically we have have them instead of F150's.
I don't know the full extent of the car scene in the US but we still have
a lot of big 6s and 8s in rear wheel drive. The GTO that came out in the
US a couple of years back was an Australian only model initially until GM
decided to send it to the world.

The GTO seems to be a well-kept secret in the U.S. IMO, it looks similar to
the Pontiac G6 so perhaps people think it is just another sub-compact car,
and with limited marketing, only car enthusiasts are aware of its
attributes.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50
Australian a gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my
conversion maths is right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is
government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel
depending on the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans
with 6l gen IV v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!
But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a
lot of other places.
IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of
petroleum produts, unlike here.
BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

We do but we still have to get it at the price on the Singapore stock
exchange. Having said that our oil production is down 20% on last year
so some of it will have to start being imported. We have a lot of coal
but it's really only for export and power generation. I don't that that
they would want to give up the coal exporting to help offset oil.
Yep we still produce the falcon and it's still a big 4 door sedan or 2
door ute. you can get it with a 4L twin cam 6, 4L turbo twin cam 6 or
5.4L Quad Cam V8. Personally I think the 330hp turbo 6 is the best.
Falcon Sedan
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Looks like the US Fusion, but no wagon version here. I like wagons.
They're handy.

Post by unknown
Falcon Ute
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage

WTF are THOSE?! Fusion TRUCKS?!?! Damn! NOTHING at all like that here.
The 'Ranchero' has been 'out of print' for a couple decades. I like the
'Styleside'; cool looking vehicle.
And a LOT of V8s! I don't kow if you can get the Fusion with an 8, all I
ever saw were sixes.

The utes are cool cars, basically we have have them instead of F150's. I
don't know the full extent of the car scene in the US but we still have a
lot of big 6s and 8s in rear wheel drive. The GTO that came out in the US
a couple of years back was an Australian only model initially until GM
decided to send it to the world.
I do have one question for you. If you like wagons and think the utes are
cool what do you think of this car?
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20000
It was only a one off but you can option the rear body on the standard ute.

It wouldn't work with my browser, but I found another pic, in
black....looks like a hearse! Someone photoshopped it in another color.

I'm a bass player and have two amps and a PA. THAT would definitely be a
decent way to haul my stuff around!

And I had heard about the Holden GTO before GM even announced it here!

[unknown]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by unknown
Aussie fuels are RON rated. we can run on avgas here to but it will
cost $1000 per cylinder in files for using it in a public road.
we get 91RON to 98 RON and it costs and costs about $4.50
Australian a gallon for 91 depending where you get it. (if my
conversion maths is right.) mind you 75%of the cost of our fuel is
government tax.

HOLY CRAP!

I know, my drive to work each week costs me about $50 in fuel
depending on the price. Yet we still drive 3800 pound 4 door sedans
with 6l gen IV v8's that get 16.5 miles per gallon. Go figure.

Sounds good to me!
But, don't you guys have your own oil there? Or is it imported like a
lot of other places.
IIRC, Oz has a LOT of coal, and the new ways of using coal are a lot
cleaner, so I would think all that coal would offset the use of
petroleum produts, unlike here.
BTW, do they still produce the Falcon there?

We do but we still have to get it at the price on the Singapore stock
exchange. Having said that our oil production is down 20% on last year
so some of it will have to start being imported. We have a lot of coal
but it's really only for export and power generation. I don't that that
they would want to give up the coal exporting to help offset oil.
Yep we still produce the falcon and it's still a big 4 door sedan or 2
door ute. you can get it with a 4L twin cam 6, 4L turbo twin cam 6 or
5.4L Quad Cam V8. Personally I think the 330hp turbo 6 is the best.
Falcon Sedan
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Looks like the US Fusion, but no wagon version here. I like wagons.
They're handy.

Post by unknown
Falcon Ute
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage

WTF are THOSE?! Fusion TRUCKS?!?! Damn! NOTHING at all like that here.
The 'Ranchero' has been 'out of print' for a couple decades. I like the
'Styleside'; cool looking vehicle.
And a LOT of V8s! I don't kow if you can get the Fusion with an 8, all I
ever saw were sixes.

The utes are cool cars, basically we have have them instead of F150's. I
don't know the full extent of the car scene in the US but we still have a
lot of big 6s and 8s in rear wheel drive. The GTO that came out in the US
a couple of years back was an Australian only model initially until GM
decided to send it to the world.
I do have one question for you. If you like wagons and think the utes are
cool what do you think of this car?
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20000
It was only a one off but you can option the rear body on the standard ute.

It wouldn't work with my browser, but I found another pic, in
black....looks like a hearse! Someone photoshopped it in another color.
I'm a bass player and have two amps and a PA. THAT would definitely be a
decent way to haul my stuff around!
And I had heard about the Holden GTO before GM even announced it here!

didn't mean to offend about the Monaro/GTO.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by unknown

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
It wouldn't work with my browser, but I found another pic, in
black....looks like a hearse! Someone photoshopped it in another color.
I'm a bass player and have two amps and a PA. THAT would definitely be a
decent way to haul my stuff around!
And I had heard about the Holden GTO before GM even announced it here!

didn't mean to offend about the Monaro/GTO.

LOL! No offesne taken! Those of us who know cars (that is, read the car
magazines!) knew it was a Holden before it got here! ;)

To the Great Unwashed, it's just another Pontiac. ;) Wonder what the VIN
begins with?

[sharx35]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Me

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

A couple of days ago, I bought a used Camry LE with the V6 (1MZ-FE
engine for the US market). So far it seems to run like a top.
Unfortunately, I did not get an owner's manual, so I would like to know
what octane fuel is recommended for that year and engine.
Anybody who has this information (please, specifically from that year's
manual), can you please post what octane is stipulated.
Thanks very much for your help.
PS - I realize that the knock sensors will allow a range in the octane,
but I'm assuming that there is a recommendation in the manual on this
matter.

I'm sure the recommendation is 87 or 89. Most cars run well on 87.
I use 93...

I have got a 99 v6 and use 98. Gotta love Australian fuels!!!

What's the Octane Method? Same as US?
And, what do you pay for it? We can get 100 here...it's called AvGas
(Aviation) and is about $4 a gallon.
Or was...that was when 93 was $2 a gallon!

Guaranteed his 98 in Australia is NOT 98 in North America. Guaranteed.

[Bruce L. Bergman]

Post by sharx35
Guaranteed his 98 in Australia is NOT 98 in North America. Guaranteed.

I already covered that earlier up in the thread, pay attention! ;-)

Australia (and probably most of Europe, but I haven't even tried to
research it) is using RON or Research Octane for their gasoline.

The USA uses an average of the Research Octane and Motor Octane
rating systems (RON+MON)/2 to get our posted "Pump Octane".

This is why you have to be careful when answering a Usenet question
- they could be anywhere, and the laws, customs, mores, and idioms
vary wildly.

--<< Bruce >>--